What if microbes control your thoughts? From shrews to newts to humans, microbes have been shaping life for millions of years. But their influence goes beyond digestion—some even impact behaviour, dominance, and adaptability to new environments. Join us as we dive into the world of microbial connections, uncover the Earth Hologenome Initiative, and explore how these tiny organisms might hold the key to evolution itself. In this episode Professor Tom Gilbert and Editor Christina Lehmkuhl Noer talk to Associate Professor Antton Alberdi from Center for Evolutionary Hologenomics about how to study ecology and evolution from a holobiont perspective.
Your hosts are PhD Christina Lehmkuhl Noer and Professor Tom Gilbert. Sound and recording by Christian Grimes Schmidt from Centre for Online and Blended Learning and editing by Christina Lehmkuhl Noer and Ella Zoe Lattenkamp.
The Center for Evolutionary Hologenomics and this podcast are generously funded by the Danish National Research Foundation.
00:00:00 Antton Alberdi
If we want to understand how microorganisms talk to each other, the fundamental principles are the same. In a shrew, in a newt, in a lizard or in a human, because microbes have been doing this for millions and millions of years, and animals have all evolved in the last 350 million years.
00:00:18 Antton Alberdi
We tend to interpret reality from a very human perspective and then we realise that humans, we are very weird.
00:00:29 Christina Lehmkuhl Noer
Hello and welcome to another episode of Microbial Connections, a podcast where my co-host Tom and I talk to experts about the fascinating new research field hollow biology, where host organisms and their associated microbes are viewed as one intertwined.
00:00:46 Christina Lehmkuhl Noer
My name is Christina Noer.
00:00:48 Tom Gilbert
And I'm Tom Gilbert and together we work at the Center of Evolutionary Hologenomics at the University of Copenhagen.
00:00:54 Tom Gilbert
And today we have a great treat. We have our very close colleague, associate Professor Antton Alberdi, with us. He's an ecologist and an evolutionary biologist, and he's got with him what looks like an exciting box of chocolates. But it's not Antton, what have you got with you?
00:01:09 Antton Alberdi
Hello Tom and Christina. It's a pleasure to be here. So I brought a black box.
00:01:15 Antton Alberdi
That doesn't contain chocolates actually, so it contains two other boxes that contain each 81 tubes that we use to get samples: Faecal samples, tissue samples from animals all over the world.
00:01:28 Tom Gilbert
And your box is going to be labelled on it. The Earth Hologenome Initiative, which I guess is relevant. So what is the Earth Hologenome Initiative?
00:01:36 Tom Gilbert
And in fact, why do you collect these samples?
00:01:38 Antton Alberdi
Well, this is an initiative we launched about five years ago and the reason we started with this big adventure, let's say, is that.
00:01:48 Antton Alberdi
And at that moment, it was very, very difficult to do any kind of comparative microbiome analysis using data that was existing already in the databases because all these data were collected in different ways. They were processed in different ways.
00:02:03 Antton Alberdi
So we thought that it would be really huge advantage to start a standardising all these methodologies so that we could generate and analyse data from different animal species in a comparable way and this is how the Earth original initiative started.
00:02:18 Antton Alberdi
And This is why this box was also created five years ago and it has been distributed already over I think 80 countries all over the world and more than 200 researchers. So for the time being we are collecting all the samples here at the University of Copenhagen and then once we generate the data then this is when we share back the information that say we have extracted from the samples we have. And then we do the analysis together.
00:02:45 Christina Lehmkuhl Noer
Very cool. So Antton tell us. We know that you are an animal behaviour biologist. Why are you all of a sudden, so interested in these microbiomes?
00:02:57 Antton Alberdi
Well, I would say that Tom is actually guilty of that.
00:03:00 Antton Alberdi
Because when I moved to Denmark nine years ago, already microbes were not within my radar at all. So I was working on bats and I remember that I started discussing with Tom the possibility of sampling guana. Of course, in in different caves so that we could reconstruct how the bat communities and their diets have changed through time. Then Tom asked me. Why don't you also analyse microbes? It's for free because if you will be doing DNA sequencing then you are going to get also this information. And I think you should also include that. So then we apply for our grant together.
00:03:39 Antton Alberdi
And we got that and this is how everything started. And then I progressively shifted into the microbial. And in now it's. It's all about microbes you know.
00:03:47 Tom Gilbert
It sounded so simple at the time, especially to me, who had no idea what I was talking about.
00:03:52 Tom Gilbert
But I guess linked to this question of course is I mean it's one thing to study microbes, but I guess what to you as somebody who is fundamentally an animal biologist, ecologist, evolution, what is it about the microbes that I guess has made it become so central to your research career?
00:04:05 Antton Alberdi
Well, I would say one thing is that we are progressively seeing that the effect microbes have on on animals all kind of animals is really significant. Of course, it differs from species. There are some that are more or less dependent on microbes.
00:04:21 Antton Alberdi
To me, I have at the moment I have the the feeling that the horizon isn't the infinite, so really the we know very, very little and this is a huge motivation to keep working.
00:04:32 Antton Alberdi
When analysing microbes and not just microbes, but it's microbes in interaction with animals, that's where endless possibilities open, because I think that we are still very limited with the methodologies, with the technical capacities. We have to understand the complexity of the systems.
00:04:49 Antton Alberdi
And even though a lot has been advanced in the in the last 10 years, the capacity for generating data, the resolution of the data, the size of the data has increased so much. But still we know that it's not enough to disentangle disentangle the complexity.
00:05:03 Tom Gilbert
So there's the technical challenge, but you know, people normally think about microbes associated with organisms as problematic, the kind of pathogenic thing there's, of course, an awareness that they're also relevant for, for diet or so on. But I guess part of your interest relates to the fact there are just so many more ways that they can.
00:05:21 Tom Gilbert
Affect your host, so maybe in that regard you can tell us a bit about some of your interest in the kind of things the microbes do to their hosts. What do you actually do? day-to-day?
00:05:26 Antton Alberdi
No, absolutely. I think we all have this biassed perception of microbes, because that's how microbes and microbial research started, so like only realising that.
00:05:41 Antton Alberdi
Microbes were doing some kind of harm to humans or to livestock, and and so on, but it is increasingly clear that microbes have been here far earlier than animals evolved so.
00:05:56 Antton Alberdi
The animal evolution has happened from the very beginning in association with microbes, microbes have been always there, and microbes are kind of the new hypothesis. The microbes have been there always, so they are part of the environment. But they are also part of the fundamental biology of animals. And that, I think, was of course the.
00:06:13 Antton Alberdi
Conspicuous trades like would be the capacity for degrading nutrients, but it also extends to many other animal features that related to behaviour related to the immune response related to.
00:06:28 Antton Alberdi
Different type of capacities for thermal regulating, for degrading the toxic compounds. There are so many, so many trades that are affected or directly driven by by bacteria that I think we really need to flip that view.
00:06:44 Antton Alberdi
Microbes been understood as primarily negative to something that it is overwhelmingly positive and there are a few of them that are negative. And of course they are important, but they should not really be the rulers of what we do.
00:07:00 Christina Lehmkuhl Noer
That's really cool. And can you give us some examples of how you actually study these microbe-host relationships?
00:07:08 Antton Alberdi
Sure. We we just a range of methodologies to see whether microorganisms affect the the behaviour of mice, for instance. That experiment was designed to understand the dominance patterns among mice and how these are affected by microorganisms.
00:07:24 Antton Alberdi
And so that was one example in which we put mice. These were cages of five mice that were housed together. And then we did longitudinal analysis, where we tracked how these dominance patterns changed and also how the microbiome changed within each individual.
00:07:41 Antton Alberdi
And then we did microbiota transplants from the most dominant animals to the most submissive ones and from the most submissive ones to the most dominant ones. To see whether there was a causal connection between the microorganisms and the behaviour. So that was one example. We've been also experimenting. For instance, so newts from different environments adapted to warm waters and cold waters.
00:08:01 Antton Alberdi
And seeing whether microorganisms are transplanted from animals from one population to the other would confer those animals have enhanced capacity to thrive in the other environments.
00:08:13 Antton Alberdi
Similar experiments have been done with lizards as well, and usually trying to assess and also measure the causal relationship really microbes, the ones that are driving this kind of behavioural physiological changes that we observe in the animals.
00:08:28 Christina Lehmkuhl Noer
How do you make those dominance tests on mice?
00:08:31 Antton Alberdi
But this is quite funny. It is the way it is done is for these 5 animals. We organise tournaments basically. So there is a plastic tube which.
00:08:40 Antton Alberdi
In each side you insert one animal and then you see which one pushes the other one out, and this is the the proxy that is used for dominance. So they don't really fight, it's just pure look into their eyes and say, OK, I'm more than.
00:08:55 Antton Alberdi
So just go back and do you repeat that test again and again and again. I remember that we did over I think over 4000 tests across the study. So well, the PhD students did in the beginning. I did a few myself and then I was there for recording and taking photos. But they are the ones that did the really hard work.
00:09:14 Antton Alberdi
Yeah. So what? Enough with 4000, you start getting something that's looks like it's consistent patterns and this is what we.
00:09:22 Tom Gilbert
So one challenge that you mentioned probably you say is because maybe you're using animals that reacted differently to the kind of conventional lab models, right? And I guess this is because you're using wild animals often, right? Animals you've trapped. And I mean, what is really the?
00:09:37 Tom Gilbert
Wild animals, as opposed to doing whatever one else is doing and just using standard mouse models in a lab.
00:09:43 Antton Alberdi
Well, I would say that's the kind of questions that we try to answer, cannot be really addressed properly with with model animals because these animals have been modified already so much, they have gone through strong artificial selection. And when you handle.
00:10:01 Antton Alberdi
A laboratory mouse or when you handle a wild mouse. These are two completely different species, so genetically they are nuts in terms of how different they are so that we would call them the same. But in terms of behaviour, in terms of Physiology.
00:10:16 Antton Alberdi
So, so different. So a wild mouse can jump 3 metres in a single jump.
00:10:21 Antton Alberdi
Lap Mouse will just walk through your arm. Just be shielded there. That will never happen with a with a wild mouse. So if you are to analyse behaviours that really have an impact on the ecology of animals and how they interact with their environment and with other species and with other individuals from the same species.
00:10:42 Antton Alberdi
There's a huge difference. There's a huge, huge difference that I think we need to take into account. And of course we always have that trade off between how? What we are working with is and how feasible to work with it is and in this case we we have worked with both.
00:10:57 Antton Alberdi
And you can tell the difference with the wild mice. We were unable to work with more than 1520 animals at once with lab mice, we were able to work with 100 mice at once. So these are this is a very big difference because a single person just for catching a mouse in the cage can take minutes and minutes and minutes like 5 minutes or 10 minutes.
00:11:16 Antton Alberdi
Well, if you have a lab mouse then this is something that you will put the hand and it will come to you.
00:11:19 Tom Gilbert
I remember the video of one of your students chasing a mouse around the Lab after it escaped, but it's the same with all the lab animals?
00:11:24 Antton Alberdi
So the newts escape and the lizards escape and they all try to escape. And they are really good at it.
00:11:32 Tom Gilbert
it might be a microbial thing. So I think of people.
00:11:37 Tom Gilbert
Find the idea that microbes, in particular gut microbes, could actually have such a big effects on their host, whether changing the the temperature they like to live in or how aggressive they are is kind of.
00:11:47 Tom Gilbert
Crazy, but I mean, so fundamentally why is it? How is it that gut microbes could do something as drastic as change the behaviour of their?
00:11:56 Antton Alberdi
When the case of behaviour we know that's this is something that has been mainly researched on in the last 20 years.
00:12:03 Antton Alberdi
That there is a very clear connection between the the guts and the brain, and it's called the the gut brain axis. And we know that a lot of microorganisms that live inside the animal guts.
00:12:14 Antton Alberdi
Directly produce neurotransmitters, for instance, so this is one way to affect behaviour, and this neurotransmitters then are inserted into the bloodstream and they go to the brain and they can start modifying the behaviour of the animal. But they are also indirect ways. So through indirect ways, like the production short chain, fatty acids and other molecules.
00:12:33 Antton Alberdi
This can also trigger neural responses and this can affect the behaviour of the animals.
00:12:38 Tom Gilbert
So basically depending on which gut microbes you are an animal has, they will sit there churning out, churning out different chemicals that can then actually affect the body, just like a regular drug can, and therefore.
00:12:48 Tom Gilbert
It's not that surprising that it could have come quite big effects on the body.
00:12:52 Tom Gilbert
You're an ecologist and evolutionary biologist. I mean, obviously, for you and many others like you, just understanding how nature works is is a reason for doing this right. But I think there's also a growing realisation that maybe the lessons learnt from wild systems might also have.
00:13:10 Tom Gilbert
Bigger picture ramifications elsewhere, right? And I guess I've often been interested in the.
00:13:14 Tom Gilbert
Year of can we learn things from the way that microbes affect their hosts in nature, even if it's a shrew or a vole or whatever? Can we learn things that are maybe relevant to humans? So I'm how much do you think we can really translate from this? You know, can we actually see if we see that aggression in a mouse is somehow?
00:13:34 Tom Gilbert
Conditioned by its microbes, can we start speculating that this might have some kind of consequence for us human society?
00:13:41 Antton Alberdi
Well, there I would say there are some traits and some biological mechanisms that are very conserved, but there are some others that are acquired very rapidly and then they can vanish and they just pop up and disappear in different evolutionary lineages. So I would, I would say that it depends on what kind of traits we are talking about.
00:13:57 Antton Alberdi
If it is a behavioural trait that is grounded on very conserved pathway, that's not changed that much between mice and humans, then I would say that that would be a valid way to try understand what's going on there.
00:14:10 Antton Alberdi
But if we are talking about a trade that it is very volatile and then sometimes some mice display it and then some rabbits display it and then perhaps even some humans only display it those kind of of trades would be far worse for doing this kind of extrapolations of what we find in in mice or in rabbits or in rats and humans.
00:14:31 Christina Lehmkuhl Noer
Is that the reason why you created the Earth Hologynom initiative to try and standardise these tests and get like I guess that's what you're saying, right, that you need to get so much more data and so many more individuals before you can actually say if there's general trend or?
00:14:50 Antton Alberdi
Yeah. Well, the ethological initiative has nothing to do with humans. We consider that that niche was always overly occupied with the human microbiome project and many other projects that have focused on human microbiomes. Our main interest with the orthogonal initiative is in fundamental ecological and evolutionary questions.
00:14:54 Christina Lehmkuhl Noer
Nope.
00:15:08 Antton Alberdi
But it is true that if we want to understand how microorganisms talk to each other, let's say in a figurative way.
00:15:14 Antton Alberdi
And how this communities develop, et cetera, the fundamental principles are the same in shrew, in a Newt, in a least order, in a human. So from the microbial perspective, these environments will be slightly different. But how microbes will interact within that environment and with that environment will be exactly the same because microbes have been doing this.
00:15:35 Antton Alberdi
Millions and millions of years and animals have all evolved in the last 350 million years, so it is something that needs to be taken into account and we are not there yet because we don't really have the information, the knowledge to understand if one microbe is added.
00:15:53 Antton Alberdi
What are all the differences? All the the changes that that will trigger? We are not there yet and we can do that, perhaps with 345 bacterium when they are together, we cannot do that with hundreds or thousand bacteria. And this is an attempt to get closer to that aim. So by finding patterns and see whether we can actually learn from those patterns.
00:16:13 Tom Gilbert
Scientists what we spend a lot of our time doing is trying to get research funding and on the one hand you're.
00:16:18 Tom Gilbert
Like all these things so complex, there's no point in funding it, but what you're also saying is it's so complex. You should give us loads of money to work out what's.
00:16:24 Christina Lehmkuhl Noer
Going on. So I like that second. Take care and I mean, you're talking about the gut brain Nexus in mice, but that's also something that researchers talk about in humans, right? So I.
00:16:34 Christina Lehmkuhl Noer
There is a lot of things you can learn from looking at mice and then try and understand it in humans as well.
00:16:39 Antton Alberdi
Definitely. I'm not just mice, so the mice are the models that are closest to us because they are genetically related to us and can be easily handled. So there's again this trade off between what is feasible and what is representative.
00:16:52 Antton Alberdi
But there are so many other animals from which we can learn about many different aspects. So there are studies on how deer mice could be detoxifying some kind of plant toxics and that could be extremely relevant then for even.
00:17:10 Antton Alberdi
Journalism medicine or for or any kind of antidotes for some kind of compounds that are personal, et cetera, et cetera. So in this kind of biodiscovery may attempts also have this possibility of finding things that you don't really expect. Yeah.
00:17:27 Tom Gilbert
So, so Anton, I mean, going back to this point of what can we learn from animal models, I know that you've made a very valid point that it's complex, but there are some really fascinating observations out there. I know that Kevin Cole, he was a collaborator we have in in Pittsburgh. His team have have actually shown that depending on which diet you give certain test animals, it actually shakes to preference, for example, and so.
00:17:49 Tom Gilbert
So if this is the case, do you think actually this is very relevant again to us humans like, could you imagine a situation where, for example, once you start being fed a certain diet, it's officially changes you that you're now conditioned to become more and more attached to that diet?
00:18:06 Antton Alberdi
Well, definitely it has an impact and and this can be observed in in humans from humans from different cultures that have been adapted to different type of nutritional sources that we can talk about Inuits that have almost the entirety of diet that is based on animal protein.
00:18:24 Antton Alberdi
And then they have adapted to that, and that's the the healthy diet for them. And microbes are actually contributing to that healthy diet with what they can do with this kind of nutrients, which is going to be completely different to other.
00:18:39 Antton Alberdi
Traditional cultures from from central Africa, for instance, that it's much more plant based, et cetera, et cetera. So then.
00:18:48 Antton Alberdi
Of course it has a huge impact in humans. That's not my my field of research and and and my knowledge is limited, but I have a lot of thoughts on how this would be affecting evolutionary processes like why some animals, animal lineages would be.
00:19:03 Antton Alberdi
Transitioning from 1 dietary habit to another and whether microbes not just serve as like causal effects of that switch, but actually the actual contributors, the ones that could open the possibility of transitioning from carnivory to herbivory or the opposite.
00:19:20 Antton Alberdi
I would say that's the the perspective so far has been that, OK, animals have different diets and as they have different diets, different nutrients come into the intestine and bacteria that can exploit those nutrients will be there and perhaps they will be helping somehow the animals.
00:19:38 Antton Alberdi
And this is something that we would really love to do within the next five years.
00:19:41 Christina Lehmkuhl Noer
What is your gut feeling? Would you think that it's the microbes that comes first and change the diet preferences? Or do you think the animal start eating something else and then that microbes change?
00:19:41 Antton Alberdi
Let's say. But I would say that as in any other kind of microbe, animal interaction, there is there are feedback loops.
00:20:01 Antton Alberdi
And so we cannot really to say that one is the cause and the other one is the effect, because they will be affecting each other and it's going to be very, very difficult to tease this apart. What I think is that in many cases, probably bacteria have a much larger impact as a tree element.
00:20:20 Antton Alberdi
Than what we have thought so far, not in all cases and based on some of the patterns we have observed with EARTHOLOGY initiative data.
00:20:28 Antton Alberdi
I think we can be quite certain that the capacity some animals have to rapidly jump from Carnival to to herbivores, for instance, might be because they have some reservoir of bacteria with certain capacities that enable them to do that jump.
00:20:43 Tom Gilbert
That that's interesting because the reason I ask is that the probiotic industry is quite big. People are obviously selling probiotics to humans in the hope that they do something. And although the classic uses, I'll give you some probiotics and it will maybe just give you a better diet for digesting something or a better resistance to to pathogens.
00:21:00 Tom Gilbert
There is interest out there in things like probiotics, maybe enhanced the mental stage or fight depression or so on. And I guess whether that works or not then is very much dependent on, as you say, the effect size, right and.
00:21:14 Antton Alberdi
Yes, I think the the main issue is that we don't really understand how microbial communities change. And without knowing that and even in most cases, without knowing how the microbial community looks like in each individual individual human in this case.
00:21:30 Antton Alberdi
The effect that probiotic can really exert in in a community, it can be so different. So if you have a community that looks like a, perhaps your bacterium will be welcomed there and then it's going to have an impact.
00:21:44 Antton Alberdi
But if you have a community that looks like B or C or D that's bacterium has no place to be there, because all the ecological niches in the intestine have been occupied.
00:21:54 Antton Alberdi
And this bacteria will just be flushed out because there is no space in the in in the environment. So without that information, and without really understanding how microbes interact with each other at the scale at which we are talking about, which is hundreds or thousands of different bacteria living together.
00:22:12 Antton Alberdi
Then it is very very difficult to to say that's OK. This will make a huge benefit to you. So it might make a benefit in certain circumstances to in certain.
00:22:22 Antton Alberdi
Individuals. That's I don't think we are there yet to find them mechanistic link. Take this bacterium if you have this kind of microorganism community and then you will have this effects. I don't think we are there yet?
00:22:35 Christina Lehmkuhl Noer
I guess a lot of the same bacteria are found in animals as in humans?
00:22:41 Antton Alberdi
Why was it yes and no? So sometimes they have the same name, but functionally they might be very, very different. OK, and this has been one of the, let's say, the realisations of the Ethologic norm initiative, what we do.
00:22:53 Antton Alberdi
In in this project is to reconstruct bacterial genomes, which enables us to get the functional.
00:23:02 Antton Alberdi
Representation of the capacities the metabolic capacities bacteria have and what we see is that sometimes, let's say, let's go for a very well known bacterium, Escherichia coli. That's can be very problematic in humans in some cases.
00:23:17 Antton Alberdi
It is present in almost all birth rates that we have characterised, but functionally can be so different, so, so different and they might have some marker genes that are are used for setting the names of the bacteria that are very similar and then you say OK, this is an escharika coli.
00:23:34 Antton Alberdi
This is some other kind of bacterium. But then functionally, they can be extremely different, and these are the kind of processes that we are also interested in. How is this functional diversification developed? Why are some bacteria with certain functional capabilities?
00:23:49 Antton Alberdi
Associated with some animals and not with some others we see sometimes that there are some bacteria that are very similar functionally and spread over hundreds of different hosts and.
00:23:59 Antton Alberdi
Sometimes some bacteria they might be spread over 100 of hearts, but they are functionally different so we have seen a little bit of everything.
00:24:07 Christina Lehmkuhl Noer
Makes it very complicated.
00:24:10 Antton Alberdi
Yes, but it is the only way. So this is the first attempt to get such a wide representation of of microbes associated with the animals in our database. Now we are approaching 70,000 bacteria genomes that have been broken.
00:24:24 Antton Alberdi
Constructed and as I said before, 90% are new species, which means that no one has ever analysed them, so no one has ever known anything about their functional capabilities. So there's so many things that be done with that and I just.
00:24:38 Christina Lehmkuhl Noer
And I guess as we talked about before with the probiotics, maybe even within species, so in humans, maybe the functions differ between different humans. And I guess that complicates things even more.
00:24:50 Antton Alberdi
Absolutely. Yes, and sometimes we also have these biases that as the initial knowledge was generated in huge.
00:24:58 Antton Alberdi
We tend to interpret reality from a very human perspective and then we realise that humans, we are very weird in terms of when we extrapolate to, to, to nature. So we are very niche and non representative sample of what is out there so.
00:25:16 Antton Alberdi
If we try to understand the nature from our human biases, we are very, very likely we are going to be wrong.
00:25:23 Christina Lehmkuhl Noer
Maybe we can be compared to a lab mouse and not?
00:25:27 Antton Alberdi
Yes, exactly.
00:25:28 Christina Lehmkuhl Noer
The wild mouse that can jump 3 metres.
00:25:30 Tom Gilbert
So you know this is a massive initiative. The Earth Hologenome Initiative, you've put in huge amounts of effort into acquiring collaborators, collecting samples, setting up the pipelines for generating data, the computational pipelines for crunching the data. Now you're getting all the samples. Then what's next? What is the next stage in its ehi adventure?
00:25:49 Antton Alberdi
We are now transitioning from the first phase where we analyse, let's say, 200 vertebrate species individually to the second phase in which all this data is going to be compiled and we will try to find patterns that transcend specific and individual species.
00:26:04 Tom Gilbert
Some would call that evolutionary hologenomics.
00:26:08 Christina Lehmkuhl Noer
I wonder who would think of that?
00:26:10 Tom Gilbert
Well, thanks, Antton. That was fascinating. I mean, it's really quite incredible what what you and the team are managing to do, not just with regards to the size of the, the collaborations you've built up in the Earth Holidaym initiative, but also.
00:26:25 Tom Gilbert
I think some of the big thinking you're doing is really going to change the way we and many others think about biology. So thanks for your time. It was a great pleasure to have you here today and good luck.
00:26:36 Antton Alberdi
Thanks a lot for the invitation and yes, see you next time.
00:26:39 Christina Lehmkuhl Noer
Yeah, this is actually the end of the first season and we hope you enjoyed the episodes. Thank you so much for listening, and please share our podcast with your network if you liked it.